Have you ever wanted to feel more confident in how you communicate with people? Not just in business, but also in life? I don’t know about you, but when it comes to conflict or disagreeing with someone, I don’t always know the best way to respond. This is one of the reasons I was excited to talk to Lori Pearlstein of PlayWorks. Lori uses improv and humour to help people and businesses get more comfortable and spontaneous when speaking in front of others. There is value in connecting with people in-person and over the phone and Lori encourages us to do more of that and rely a little less on social media. In this episode, Lori and I chat about how COVID-19 means we rely a lot more on online communication, but how we can also use this time to improve our comfort and confidence to have better, more authentic conversations in our businesses.

You won’t find Lori on social media much, but you can learn more about her and connect with her on her website, and occasionally on Facebook or LinkedIn.

Full episode transcript:

Karen: Hello and welcome to the Small But Mighty Biz Stories podcast. Today I'm here with Lori Pearlstein of Playworks. Lori's specialty is helping people, from kids to adults, get out of their comfort zone and explore the realms where the magic happens. She does this through play and improv in a safe environment free of judgment. Welcome, Lori. Please, tell us all about you and your business.

Lori: Thank you. We started Playworks, 10 and a half years ago now. It's been a journey of starting with classes that would help either kids or adults just get more comfortable speaking in front of people and being more spontaneous. Then the odd person would say, "Oh, my company could really use a team-building workshop," or, "I've to do a presentation. Can you help me with that?" Then I started focusing on the corporate market, and every day is a new day with a new focus. There's never a dull moment, I can say that.

Karen:  That's awesome. You have a background in acting and you use improv a lot in the work you do. Is that how you got started doing improv, was in the acting training you were doing years ago?

Lori: Yes, I guess I started both around the same time. As a kid, I was just very theatrical, love the spotlight, loved making up plays and acting and improv were just really good outlets for me. I took a class at Second City, I took some acting classes, and what I realized later in life was how the principles of improv were so helpful to living a better life. They're survival skills, learning how to be in the moment and making your partner look good, and listening. All of the elements of what I learned to focus on one profession in my life I just realized we're at the core of how I just wanted to live my life, especially now that we're in the middle of a pandemic, those rules are very helpful every day.

Karen:  How has the pandemic had you shifting your business?

Lori: I had to do everything online, obviously, instead of doing it in person. Initially, I didn't know how it was going to go because I always put so much emphasis on-- My branding was all about get off your devices, get off social media and have real conversations in person, and connect. I thought, how am I going to do this? I realized that learning resilience and how to make a mistake or be like a deer caught in the headlights and then be okay and know that you can recover was the lesson that everybody needed now. I stopped focusing on the fact that we can't do it in person, and focused on the fact that I need to give people a fun, light-hearted way to practice mindfulness, essentially. Once I was able to make that flip in my mind of my perspective of how am I going to run my business during this online, it's been amazing.

Karen:  That's so interesting. It's like you're helping others apply improv to get out of their comfort zone, whatever the challenges they happen to be having, and I'm sure they run the gamut. It's applying the principles of improv to your business to get through COVID.

Lori: Absolutely. That's why I said it was amazing to me. I just had this aha moment about 10 years ago where I thought, I don't want to focus on this being-- I really actually, to be quite honest, stopped using the word improv because there is such an association with comedy and theater and being funny. It's really hard for people to understand that these are like icebreaker, think-fast exercises that I do. I don't make people act like dogs or put on different voices or anything.

It really was, again, how I started my business and then how I was able to pivot, being the word that everybody is using, to keeping my business alive. It's just saying, "Here's your challenge, what are you going to do about it? You're going to get in your head, you're going to focus on what you can't do. When you're stuck in the past, you're not going to get anywhere, when you're anxious about the future, you're not going to get anywhere," so it's like, "Okay, here I am. Let me learn how to use Zoom." I am not very technically inclined. So, I know for most people, it's like, really, you had to learn how to use Zoom? Yes, I had to learn how to use Zoom.

Karen:  You are not alone. We are so many. So, at some point you went from the career you had in acting and then realized that what you had learned in your years of training could help people escape the confines of their comfort zones. What was that aha moment like?

Lori: Well, I was living in New York and I was hosting a weekly comedy show with the biggest and the best comics. I was doing tons of theater, everything was going really well. I'm like, "Okay, that's it. This is where I've always dreamt about being. I'm living my dream." After 911, I was living there during 911, my visa expired, so I was on a student visa, and then you have like a year after. Then if you don't find a job or someone's going to sponsor you, you now have to leave the country.

I came back to Toronto, and I started this journey very late. This was a dream since I was 18, but I wasn't able to realize it until I was 28 for a variety of reasons. I came home in my early 30s, where all my friends were getting married and starting families, and I was like, I'll just get an agent and start auditioning, and I just had that realization of I can't just be a waitress anymore and be auditioning and wait for something to happen. I was just like, "Now you're just getting a little too old and a part here and a part there is not going to be enough anymore."

Lori: I had already tried suppressing my passions and doing a year of business school and then working in advertising, hoping eventually I could get to the creative side of advertising and at least have that balance of stability but something that I-- I was always good at writing jingles or coming up with a really cool concept for commercials and stuff like that. I thought, okay, that's my direction. Then there was something missing, I got an audition that was an amazing opportunity, ended up leaving my job, ended up getting back into acting.

It just became this thing where I was like, I need to find something, now that I'm in my 30s, where I am fulfilled, where I get to be creative. I've always been all about helping people. It's just always been on my radar. I'm an empath and I was like, "What can I do?" That's why I was like, working at schools with kids and building their confidence and kindness/bullying prevention workshops. That was really how the wheels started turning and then it's grown and taken many different shapes since then.

Karen:  Amazing. What have you seen happen with some of the people that you've worked with? How has the work that you've done impacted them?

Lori: I really think overall, it's just given them permission to be kinder to themselves when they trip. That's the best way that I can explain it. It's like the second you're with somebody and they're like, "Oh, I can't do this. I'm so bad at memorizing," they have to do a presentation, for example. "I suck at memorizing lines. I always get nervous." They have this negative self-talk.

It's not like there aren't things that I want to improve upon in my life. I can totally relate to not feeling confident in something but the second they have a cheerleader that's reminding them that that's just going to perpetuate the negativity, then it's like, "No, now I want you to stand out there. If you do forget your lines you know what you're talking about. You have been asked as an expert on this subject to speak in front of a thousand people. If you forget where you are, I just want you to keep talking about what you're supposed to be talking about." Then, all of a sudden, they grow an inch and I would say, "Oh, girl," that's really what I see in people and hopefully, that's the takeaway is that in every aspect in their life, they realize that when something isn't going well, you can dwell on it or you can be like I can get past this.

Karen:  Getting out of the comfort zone is something that so many of us struggle with. What are some of the reasons that we struggle with it? Because I know that on your website, you emphasized the judgment of others. Is that the primary thing that gets in people's way or are there are other factors that are involved as well?

Lori: I am a firm believer that all of our challenges at the core are based in confidence or lack thereof. Especially now, we are just living in a time where judgment is everywhere. The pictures you post, the content you post, it's such a superficial world that, how can people not think that they're enough? What we're seeing isn't necessarily real. It's polished and airbrushed and rehearsed. Yes, I really think that in order to feel comfortable getting out of your comfort zone, you just have to think about it from that point of view where you want to get better at something. You want to improve in a particular area. If you feel like you can do it, you will do it.

Karen:  Yes. It's not about achieving perfection, it's about achieving what?

Lori: Even an improvement. An improvement comes with a different perspective. Again, it is—and we all, and like I said, now more than ever, worry about what other people think of us. Again, whether you're in a meeting, like, I've done team-building/communication workshops where we focus on the principle of saying yes in improv. We're going into a meeting, there's always somebody that takes over, doesn't give you a chance to share your thought. Is the biggest personality in the room and you've got this inner dialogue going, "Oh, great, they're never going to let me speak," or, "I don't like that idea but I'm too afraid to share my idea because they're just going to shoot me down."

They’re not speaking about each other, but I can always tell based on how they're behaving, who plays what roles potentially in a meeting. You have to say to the bigger voice, even if you don't like somebody's idea, now I want you to practice saying yes to their idea and building on it instead of shooting it down. Then to the person that you can tell is a little bit more timid in a meeting, you're now speaking to them and saying now I want you to believe that you have value because you're in that meeting for a reason and speak up. It really does become that simple.

I think with me, it's just about in a very short amount of time when I'm working with a group, figuring out who everybody is and giving them the feedback based on that without calling them out on who I think they are. It's just an intuitive thing I keep in my head and give you feedback accordingly. We all know those people that are willing to jump up and not let anybody else speak and then there are other people are like, "Oh God, don't pick me. I don't want to do this."

Karen:  You're empowering the person who doesn't want to be picked. The person who will bulldoze over other people, how are they impacted?

Lori: Well, again, I'm going to go back to the fact that I still think that has a lot to do with confidence. I think their need to be that big personality and have themselves heard in such a major way without working as a team, making your partner look good. What do they say, “There's no I in team.” I think those people are overcompensating for something.

Karen:  That's a great point.

Lori: Like I said, it doesn't usually take me long to figure out what that is. If they're talking a little too much, that's still, to me, a lack of confidence issue that's making them need to be so big and powerful. There's very nice polite ways to let them let somebody else shine.

Karen:  So interesting. So much insight about people through this kind of work. When you have the person responding to an idea that you don't really like and with yes and then you build on that idea, how do you see the group dynamic change when that happens?

Lori: They see a more positive outcome. If we're doing an exercise and I'm like, "Oh, Karen, I love your purple dress." Your first instinct might be to say, I'm not wearing a purple dress. Well, now you just shut down anything beautiful that could've happened. Then I was like, okay, no, no, no, if I say you're wearing a purple dress and that's what I'm contributing, go with it. Be like, "Oh, do you like it? I was so scared this morning when I woke up. Purple's so bold, I never wear purple," then we've got somewhere to go. They really do see the magic -- Then it's like there's this cohesiveness that they're just not used to.

Karen:  It must also bring out a lot of creativity.

Lori: Yes, and that tends to be really helpful in brainstorming sessions and problems and solutions. Just being able to think outside the box is just another thing they learn by doing some very simple, and I feel the need to stress that because, again, there's a whole branding other conversation we could have about that scary word, improv. Giving people that ability through these exercises to see all the different ways that they can communicate with someone. How they can listen better, how they can problem-solve on a whole other level by just opening the door to new ways of looking at something.

Just back to reading people. When people see she's been an actor for so long, the one thing I don't think people understand about actors, never mind their perception of improv, is that your job as an actor is to study human behavior. You're playing a version of yourself but it's the insecure part of yourself for one role, it's the ball-busting part of yourself, excuse my language, for another role.

I've spent my whole life just being fascinated by why people do what they do and somebody that's like super healthy and exercises all the time, and is so conscious of that, and then smokes 10 joints a day, and you're like, that is such a contradiction but we're all contradictions. That's another thing, I think when you explain that to people, that somebody can be really good at this and have every reason to be confident, but maybe the way they were brought up, maybe they had a parent that, "Well, an A-minus isn't good enough. You're not succeeding until you get an A-plus," so they go through their whole life not feeling good enough.

Again, I feel like the acting background has really given me that ability to hone in on what it is that is keeping somebody feeling stuck. You know who you can push a little bit to start, and then someone you can push a little bit more. They're all growing but at a pace that they're comfortable with.

Karen:  Yes, absolutely. Because when you're already in a vulnerable place, and the work you do does tap into vulnerability, you don't want to push someone too far and have them shut down.

Lori: Exactly. It's never happened yet, in 10 years. It's a lot of sense of like, "Okay, we'll go to you last," if they're like, "I don't know what to say." "Okay, that's all right. Take some time." It's usually, they've built it up in their head to be very scary, and then all of a sudden, even if they get stumped, they can't think of a word that starts with the letter R, okay, but you probably now in your head are going, "Oh, crap. I can't think of something that starts with R. Why can't I think of anything?" They're obsessing about that.

Well, we all know you know, something that starts with letter R. The block is you keep telling yourself that you don't. Now, I'm going to give you another letter so we can get off the R for you for a minute. The first thing, it can be the name of a person, a food, a colour, or a verb, an N. All of a sudden, they're like-- I said just first thing that pops in. Norman. Great. Start a sentence with Norman. “Norman, why do you always come into the house and forget to lock the door?” Boom, you did it.

Then, again, like I said, you see them grow an inch. They realize that a bit of vulnerability can actually be very helpful, more than the initial thought, which is, "Oh, that's scary. I don't want anyone to know that I'm uncomfortable right now." Why? We're all uncomfortable. I think social media has really hurt people's ability to want to be real and vulnerable.

Karen:  It really is a bit of a…I'm trying to think of a kind way to say this or a not inappropriate way to say this. Social media can really warp your sense of what is real and what is not real because it is such a filtered version of reality. That's, you don't know necessarily what to believe about people, about the world.

Lori: 100%. Then the flip side of that is there are those other people that are a little too comfortable being all out there. I think that's an issue because that's a cry for help from a community that is not necessarily there to support you. Yes, on Facebook, if those are your friends and it's not a public post, you can definitely get help when you need it, but I just find it's a lot more successful if you're having a really hard time, to actually have a real conversation with somebody.

Karen:  Yes. We were talking a little bit before we got on that you're not super keen to use social media to promote your business. Tell me a little about your thoughts on that because I was very resistant to setting up a Facebook page for my own business. I didn't want to do it. Tell me what your feelings are on social media.

Lori: Well, it starts with what we've already discussed. I think there's a judgment on, "Oh, well, how successful is somebody? Well, let's see how many likes they got on a post." Especially when you're promoting what I do. I'm not like most people, I've been on camera my whole life so as a general rule, I am not uncomfortable having a conversation with you, not really knowing what we're going to talk about, or just doing a video on the fly without preparing. That is within my comfort zone. What I much prefer is if somebody wants to get to know my business.

Let's talk about video first. I could do a video of like, "Here's three tips on how to be a better public speaker," or, "Here's three tips on getting your team to communicate more successfully," but the real work that I do that makes me successful and makes a team or an individual more successful is getting to know the specifics of what the problem is for that person. To me, sure, it could get my face out there. I'm not saying it would hurt. I'm saying I am so stuck. Again, this is me admitting where I am out of my comfort zone.

I do push myself.

Sometimes it's just like, "I'm having a thought right now. It doesn't happen often. I'm just going to put the camera on." I've even had friends go, "You know what's so funny, you're so sweet and kind, and you mean everything you're saying, but I'll be curious to see," because they already know that I struggle with this, "how many likes you get because I can tell that you have a bit of a frustration with what you're saying, and if people don't know you, who knows what they're reading into it." I've had very open conversations with people and I'm like, "I'm just going to do it almost as an experiment."

Because here was my first turn off. I got Facebook, whatever, 13 years ago, whenever people started to get Facebook. It was great. I was connecting with people that I knew from my acting world, from a camp I went to in the States where I hadn't seen these people in a year. How much fun is that? I love connecting with people. You have to post a profile picture when you're setting up an account.

I know nothing at this point about likes but based on the number of people you have I can see that are your "friends", and I use air quotes when I say that, let's say you get 100 likes. Well, then I start my business. I'm like, "Hey, guys. Here are some courses I'm offering." Three likes. Six months later, maybe I was getting married or something, with a big event. Great. I get a lot of likes for that. I think I'm doing something really impressive, business-wise, and I've started a new business, and I would love people's support, and I'm now divorced. Five likes.

Facebook was my first, that's why I'm talking about Facebook specifically right now, was my first social media account. I was like, "Oh, people on Facebook don't like when I post about my business. I think they much prefer the funny goofy pictures of me and my dog." I've changed my profile picture maybe once a year because that's not what I care about, and I don't need the validation. "You look so good," means nothing to me. What means everything to me is, "Lori, I love what you're doing. You're trying to help people. Let me share that for you."

Unfortunately, I guess maybe more so because Facebook is the social friend platform, people may think maybe I'm misusing it. Although a lot of people do that. So then I started a business page. Then I invite all my friends to like that business page, and they don't want to. Not to say they don't want to, but it's like, "Now everyone has a business page," and they don't want to like everyone's-- Their whole newsfeed is filled with people's business.

I understand all of that. I do not take it personally, but it really started me on this journey of being like, "If somebody wants to know what I do or can do for their company, they'll send me an email, "Hi, we're thinking about a Laugh & Learn. What does that look like and how much does it cost?" I don't have a blanket answer for that. I want to know, what are your challenges? How many people are on your team? How long would you like the workshop to be? Do you want it to be just about this or do you want me to incorporate this? Let's have a conversation and that's just not as popular these days. That's a long way to say that.

Those are my thoughts on social media. I know people that are just on their computers all day and they can totally just engage in the comments. Obviously, when I'm doing the work I'm doing, I can't check my phone. I don't have that kind of job where you can be on your phone and do what you do at the same time and just check-in. When I'm done my sessions, I don't want to be on the phone. I hate my phone. I shut everything down.

During COIVD, yes, I have Zoom cocktail hours with friends and I like to talk on the phone while I'm cooking and we're sharing recipes. I'm trying new recipes but I'm just not comfortable there. I'm much more comfortable with my real conversation. Even if it's face-to-face on a screen, to me, that's just more authentic and that's where my comfort level is.

Karen:  Yes, it's really challenging. I have some similar feelings about promoting business online because, ultimately, the goal in business is to support your life. You have to make money. If you are trying to do something that's about more than money, if you are operating based on your values and really putting that as the centerpiece of your business, it can be so challenging to communicate that effectively in promotional material. It's something that I really feel strongly about personally and I struggle with it myself. Marketing is inherently-- It's turned into a rather manipulative and, again, I'm trying to think of the kind words.

Lori: Superficial.

Karen:  Somewhat superficial, manipulative a little bit, exploitative too because we're using people's data. We're trying to tap into all the targeting with ads and things, it's hard for me as a marketer to really get on board with some of the techniques that we're using and feel good about it. Because I know that a lot of this is using infrastructure like Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, et cetera, that is designed to addict people. It's using your natural response to all the likes, that dopamine response, and I have different responses.

Weirdly, I had a post on LinkedIn that's, for me, it's a bit viral. I've had over 100 people like it and I realized that this is not my audience. None of these people are my audience. There is potentially an authenticity problem with the content that I created there because it's wrong. I'm attracting the wrong kind of attention. That dopamine rush of seeing there are so many likes, it doesn't exist with this. I'm like it's wrong, something's off. I should have fewer likes.

Lori: Now I got to see that post after. I'm so curious.

Karen:  I'll send you a link to it so you don't have to go digging up, but it's one of those things that I think a lot of people get attracted by the attention and not so much whether the attention is valuable.

Lori: I agree. I agree. I wrote an article, it was an online magazine. Then I wrote another article again, similar topic which was all about, to me, it's its own epidemic where people forget about real relationships and connecting. Not everybody, I'm making a generalization with this whole addiction, is that they need that validation and they spend so much time trying to get it online, but they don't have it in the real world and that is so frightening to me.

That's why it's like I wouldn't want to post as a popularity contest. Like I said, me and my friends laugh about it which is why my friends will actually say "I just saw your video." I'll say like, "What do you think the response is going to be for this?" I have to joke about it. I'm very lucky that my business has been successful by word of mouth because that's what's important to me.

Then you ask people for referrals and everybody gets busy, but they're like, "Well, you can copy and paste and email." Then someone says, "Thank you so much. You were so helpful." Great. You sent them the recommendation link on LinkedIn for them to write it themselves because then it's "real" and I use air quotes when I say that, but then they get busy and I totally understand that and I hate to be the nag of the person who's like, "Hi, remember when you wrote me that really, can you--?"

Then you have people who share, "Here's what my client today said," and it's like yes, again, I think referrals are important but maybe it's having been in acting for such a long time where it goes through the same thing as reviews when you're in a show. Where they're like, well, it has to be said that Lori was a great actress, blah blah blah, but am I going to put all my success and value in what that person says or if I have an audience of people who are crying because I really touched them after? What is more important, right?

Karen:  Yes, absolutely.

Lori: I feel like again, of course, it's great to have people write you the recommendations and reviews and whatever and I'm very bad at following up with people, but again, what I focus on is tell your friends. I know that once they are speaking to a friend or family member after they've left a session where they feel really great, they're just going to naturally share this experience that they have that they really appreciated, and then my phone rings and it's somebody else. "Oh, so and so told me what you did. I would love you to do that for me." It's so much more comfortable with that.

Karen:  One of the things that makes--

Lori: It's real.

Karen:  Yes, that's one of the things that makes word of mouth marketing so powerful is that you are-- there's a stat and I don't know if it's still true, but there was this long ago stat where people will tell one person if they have a good experience and 10 if they have a bad experience, but that one person hearing about your good experience can be so much more powerful. Because when you think about how many companies have vast numbers of tweets and reviews and Facebook posts complaining about them and they're still making money hand over first, obviously, the complaints don't necessarily get the same attention or weight put on them.

Lori: 100%. It's funny, I don't remember what I was online looking for, but I ended up at a website and they said, "If you are not completely satisfied with this product, before you go on social media and share that, please call us so we can make it right." I meant to send them an e-mail right there and say good for you because it is so easy for people to do that. It's funny, I actually just posted on Facebook the other day. I did a Laugh & Learn for a group of women, and as soon as it was or I was like "Oh, great. I forgot to take the picture of everyone on Zoom." I find those so, what does that tell you?

It's almost like in the social media world, if you don't post a picture of it happening, it didn't happen,

Karen:  That's true, that's very true.

Lori: So fine. I've done all of these, I don't want to make people uncomfortable, people think they look terrible so I don't ask. I'm already asking them to be vulnerable so I'm really bad at asking for the pictures or the people that really lack confidence who I helped, they don't want to share with the

world how I help them because they might not want to admit to where they started from and why they actually wanted my help. I sign a lot of confidentiality agreements because people maybe are higher profile and don't want people to know. Now here we are, I finished this workshop. I'm like, "These women are all, most I think if not all, were entrepreneurs." That would have been the time for me to be like, "Oh, let me get a picture." It's not on my radar to do that. They did let me record it for my own purposes because I wanted feedback at the end. I said, obviously, I won't share anything.

Then I got off the call and I was like, "I forgot to take that picture that I should totally post on LinkedIn." I went through the video to see if I could get a screengrab. What I loved about it was, there was a moment, and again it wasn't like, "Okay, everyone, on the count to three say cheese all the way takes a picture." It was this totally real moment where everyone was smiling genuinely because of what somebody said. I I sent it to everybody and I asked their permission.

The idea of needing to post that to help with business is so-- I don't know, it just doesn't tell the story as much-- I know exactly what it is. Five minutes after the workshop, I was like, "Oh crap, I've got to get pictures." I'm going through the video before I start my next session to see if I can find one to email to everyone. I get a message, you have a recommendation to review on LinkedIn. I didn't even remember to say, "Please, if you like this experience, share it." None of that. It was an hour, everyone's rushing, I'm rushing because I've got something to do.

This woman just had the instinct to do it and wrote the nicest recommendation for me. Then I did take a screenshot of it and I posted on Facebook and I said, "Hey, guys, just a friendly reminder, especially to the people that are not small business owners and especially now. If you have a great experience with a small business, take two minutes and share. You have no idea what that means to a business owner, especially when it unsolicited." I'm thinking, "What a sweetheart that she did that." Not that she's not a sweetheart, but shouldn't that be the obvious, especially in these times that when you have a great opportunity you tell everybody?

Now going back full circle to your point, when you have a bad experience, you are the first person to be like, "Thanks, Air Canada, you lost my luggage," or whatever. That, to me, is what society has told us is more important. To get what you deserve by being negative instead of how can I help somebody? Especially now with small business that's struggling. It's so easy and people just don't think to do it, but they never think twice about it if it's something negative. It's all I'm going to say because I really don't want to rant.

Karen:  I think that's an important point especially these days. One of the reasons that I started this podcast was because small businesses were suffering so much with COVID. Your business had to pivot so quickly. I have been fortunate, in a way, I actually left the corporate world and started my business last January. The timing was perfect. There was actually no pivot. I just started operating in this world we're in. A lot of businesses were experiencing real challenges and I wanted to help them tell their stories. Do a little bit to help promote what's out there, the creativity, the innovation the values, the care that people have for their customers.

That was my reasoning for starting this podcast. I think that this whole situation because we're experiencing this collective trauma and we're watching what that brings out in certain people. For some of us, it's actually spurring us to change how we interact with the world. I know I have been very intentional about being kind towards service workers and out of compassion for the toughness of working and being out in public spaces during this time. I love that you're bringing up the idea of just telling people when you are happy because I think it is so important. It's such a kindness.

Lori: Well, but doesn't that go right back to the conversation we had earlier about judgment. Why is everyone worried about judgment? Because everyone is so quick to point out the negative.

Karen:  It's true.

Lori: It drives me bananas. Like I said, anyone who really knows me knows. Anything I've ever posted is never about-- Anyone who knows me, I really am who I put myself out there as. I think the advantage that I have for being able to do that, here's another thing about the advantage of being an actor when people might judge, well, what does know about the corporate world? Yes, I worked in the corporate world, but how do I know how to behave or interact with a person with a different type of background? Think about the rejection as an actor. How many auditions did I go on where I didn't get the part? How many times did I get up on stage?

I was dared to try stand up for the first time. I was the girl that was funny at a party. In the kitchen, it was I'd just make a group of people-- I never needed that big attention of a whole crowd of people and, "Hey guys, what's happening," but the storytelling of the things that I went-- It was all self-effacing, all went back to the same thing. It was wanting people to realize like, yes, here are my bad dating experiences, or here's the crazy family life I grew up in and just wanting to connect people and bring them together and be not as afraid to be real. I guess that's always been on my radar.

Again, it's easy for me to be kind, but again, I don't always feel the need to say that much on Facebook or LinkedIn is a whole different animal because I think, again, what I've been told is they just want you to add value. You can't just post a flyer going, "Hey, if anyone's interested, join my workshops." You have to prove yourself to be an expert on the subject first. Again, anytime I see an article about improv, I do want to share. Then I'm like, "Well, I still think I got to stop using the word improv." I guess the point I was trying to make was, I don't believe because there are so many people that aren't really who they are that a lot of the people who don't know me, would really think that I am being who I really am online.

I guess I leave it to, oh, if somebody hears this podcast that we didn't rehearse, you can totally tell I'm all over the place. This is literally what's coming to me. I would hope that it would inspire somebody to call me and tell me what their challenge is and let me see how I can help and even do a little, "Let's spend five minutes. Let me see if this resonates with you." Then you can decide if you want to spend money and hire me. To me, that is what I wish was a more popular way of doing business today. That's where I'm clearly so much more comfortable.

Karen:  Yes. It's hard and there is this expectation, I think almost more so online that you fit into a certain box. Even then in person because it's all recorded. I think that actually enhances or heightens the vulnerability compared to in real life where something happens and there's no record of it. It goes away if you can forget about it. Even if you're obsessing over it for a while, it eventually peters out. That's hard for a business owner who wants to be really authentic and not I have to fit into that part.

Lori: Sorry, which part is hard? The being in real-life or the being on social media?

Karen:  On social media. Yes.

Lori: I guess if you want to put in the time, I've actually been working on a video series for a really long time. I was like, "This is where I'm comfortable." I always dreamed about having a talk show. I know the whole world has a podcast now or a video series. I was like, "This is why I've been struggling with video because I don't want to just talk to the little camera. I want to talk to people. I want dialogue." That's what drives me and fuels me. It finally occurred to me, I know why I hate doing those videos. Like I said, I deleted a lot of the videos I had made pre-COVID because they all focused on things that are no longer the world we live in.

Like getting off your devices and not relying on-- Now literally, it's what we're relying on. I almost didn't want to remind anyone of…I didn't want that to bring up anything so I deleted a bunch of that stuff. Like I said, once every couple months, I just have a thought and I'm like, "I'm just going to press play and I'm just going to share this or press record." I decided I think what, and I think it's different for each business owner depending on who they are and what they do, is to make sure that you're not putting out content for the sake of putting out content.

The second I say, "Well, hi, I'm putting content out there that I'm authentic because I want to sell--" That doesn't feel authentic if you have to say it. It seems like I'm just trying to be real. I was like, "Oh, now at least I have that lightbulb moment of why I have struggled with it so much," because me talking to a camera, again, if you have to do it, you have to do it. Like I said, I could easily make some training videos, but I haven't because I know at the core, if I were going to make a video and sell my business, I need a person who is afraid to be on camera or do a podcast or speak and record me and them going through the training so you see the before and you see the after. Do you want to guess how many people feel comfortable doing that? It's not for Lori's brand.

Karen: Not many.

Lori: It's not like I want it to make me look good. That's literally what is marketing for. It's to show people what you do and the value of what you do. Well, it's really hard for me to show unless you can see the before and the after.

Karen:  That's why word-of-mouth marketing is good for you.

Lori: Exactly. That's just my whole discomfort, but like I said, I'm grateful that it took I guess 10 years for me to be like, that's what I need to do. I need to have conversations with people in all these different, a very wide variety of backgrounds to talk about all the things I'm passionate about. Confidence and integrity and getting out of your comfort zone. I feel like, will that at least really be me. Anything superficial that is just for the sake of doing it, I've stayed away from, for better or worse. I'm totally aware that I could get a lot further ahead.

Karen:  Yes. I think that's basically the way this decision you can make as a business owner. One of the things that I say to my clients is when they're saying, "Well, so and so told me I need to be on Twitter." Well, why? Why did they tell you you need to be on Twitter? What's the purpose of you being on Twitter? Is your audience on Twitter? Is that the only place they are, or can you find your audience elsewhere? How are you getting customers? If you don't need to market anywhere online at all and you're still bringing in business, maybe you don't need to be online at all. That's a radical thing for a marketer to say.

Lori: Right. Like I said, I've got my LinkedIn and my Instagram, a lot of it is personal and professional together and I've heard a lot of markers say, "No, you need a separate one for business." Well, unlike most businesses, How do I want to say this? Most people build a brand based on what they want to sell. Really, at the end of the day, I'm my brand. I didn't start behaving in a way because then I could have a brand that's an extension of that. My brand is an extension of me, so, yes, I have other trainers that I can hire when there's more than one event in a day, or when I need multiple facilitators for a bigger group, but I think for me, it's all about who I am.

I think it's really important for everybody to at least acknowledge the benefits of social media. Again, I do have all of the accounts, but like I said, even some of them, one day it's a personal post and one day it's a professional post, but to me, it's the same. I'm not trying to be anybody different from my business or anyone different from my personal work.

Karen:  Your work is part of who you are and so it shouldn't be a hesitation to share about that. If people aren't interested, they're not interested. My biggest thing with social media is making sure that you're comfortable because you can't be authentic if you're not. That is what I think so many people, they don't want-- There's this marketer I know of who has been pushing people to join TikTok. I think it's hilarious because there's no way that kind of a network is going to work for any and all businesses. For some, for sure, it's going to be the right place for them to be, but every single one needs to be taken on its own merit.

Even more important than that is whether or not you're actually comfortable with being there and have the resources to do it well. I've told clients before, I think you should just shut down your account in this particular area because it's not going to do you any good and they've heard from other people the opposite. It's one of those things where you get conflicting messages all the time. So many businesses are overwhelmed by marketing to begin with and then to have all these messages coming at you of what you should be doing is a lot.

Lori: Yes, 100%. Again, for better or worse, I'm totally aware that if I had it in me or I found the right social media manager, which has always a challenge, to find someone that understands the corporate element and the plainest element of it and speak in that voice. Again, verbally, I'm the person to do it. Putting that online where there's no tone, I'm all about tone, is very difficult. Now, I have days where I'm in the kitchen improvising. I play this game with myself just to add a little fun to this and I'm like, "First three ingredients I see, one in my fridge, one on my cupboard, one on my counter, one in my freezer, whatever, I'm going to make something."

I have the best time. I'm FaceTiming with friends while I'm doing. There are a bunch of things I could make videos about that would be hysterical, but on the other hand, I don't need to share that stuff. I also think there's this pressure for a lot of people to share everything. I like to share those moments with my friends and my family that have kept me laughing when I have to be home through all of this. I don't feel the need to share that. On the other hand, I know some people feel the pressure to just keep pumping out content that might be hurting them more than-- It's hard. It's really hard.

I've made a choice and, like I said, I'm not saying it's the right choice, all I know is that if I am being authentic, it's like I can't post something because I'm supposed to. I have to do it because it feels right. Even if that's hurting me and I could be just pushing out content five days a week but then I have to engage and I don't want to at the end of the day. I just want to shut everything off.

Karen:  I think that we all as business owners, especially small businesses because resources are limited, mental space is limited, pandemic fatigue is real, there's a lot going on we have to set those boundaries. Sometimes it can limit your marketing. Maybe that has an impact on your business, but it may not end and when it doesn't, you know that you're doing okay. That your mix of things that you're participating in are fine. The only time it becomes a concern is when you're not able to reach your goals.

Lori: I don't have any answers for anybody in the marketing world other than, sure, get a little bit out of your comfort zone, as I try and do. Also, what works for one person isn't going to work for everybody. Zoom fatigue is real. I was one of those people who wanted to throw my phone out the window before this happened. At the end of the day, when I've got business stuff that I'm dealing with and I'm driving from one place to another and everyone has me on their text chains with a bunch of friends, it's beeping nonstop. I'm like, "Oh my god, can you please take me--" "I love you. I want to communicate with you, but just call me. I can't." I've never been good with any of that.

Karen:  It's hard. I think that's-- people like yourself, I'm on my phone quite a bit. Unless I do need to be present, if I'm out to dinner with friends, I'm not on my phone all the time. I want to engage with people. I think it's harder for people who really aren't tied to the phone to have that as a thing that they have to have strapped to them all the time. Again, you're setting boundaries. You're saying, "No, I'm not going to keep this leash attached all the time." I'm not doing it.

Lori: It's not even a conscious choice. For me, it's just a need. When I'm texting back and forth with somebody and I'm like, "Can you just call me?" We could get all of that back and forth sorted out in one one-minute conversation and I could be starting to cook something, putting in my laundry, cleaning up something at the same time where work on that.

Karen: Yes. Well, tell everyone how they can find you. You've got your website?

Lori: I do, yes. Guys, believe it or not, I have a website. I'm real with the times. It's www.lpplayworks.com. Didn't think about that when I was researching the name of my business. I didn't think, oh, check if that website is available first. It's lpplayworks.com. What do I have? I've got, LinkedIn is my name, Lori Pearlstein. You can find me there. With a few posts, now and again.

Karen:  Perfect. We will include the links in the show notes so that everyone can find you and connect with you. Hopefully, they'll email you or call you to connect.

Lori: I'd love to have those conversations.

Karen:  I have really enjoyed chatting with you about this. It's not often that I get to riff with somebody that's as not in the social media as I am.

Lori: Well, it was a pleasure.

Karen: I hope that you have a great day. Thank you for coming on.